| Subject: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer |
| Group: microsoft.public.msdn.general |
| Date: 4/10/2008 7:30:58 AM |
| From: "Russell Stevens" [Email Address Protection] |
At the time I downloaded Sharepoint Designer my subscription only had Sharepoint Designer (Expression Web was not available). I have recently started using it (I only do a few webs a year). Microsoft has stated that Sharepoint Designer is a superset of Expression Web - you can do everything you can do in Expression Web plus some sharepoint stuff. Well you can do everything EXCEPT create a new NON Sharepoint website using a template. Who is Microsoft trying to fool. These two programs are 99% identical. They have the same code base, same layout, same help file, and same setup program (with very minor differences). The setup program is so identical that it actually DOES install all the templates but Sharepoint Designer is crippled so that it can't use them. They even left the option to create a new website using a template in the program. They just suppressed the templates so that you can't select any. Does Microsoft expect their customers to have to buy/use both programs - you could run one of these programs all day long and unless you look in the title bar, you wouldn't know which program you were using. You need Sharepoint designer if you are doing sharepoint sites, master pages, etc. but why cripple it so you can't do a plain simple website. Just buy another copy of the same identical program which has the sharepoint stuff turned off and the templates turned on. I can understand having a premium program for Sharepoint and a separate less feature rich program for non Sharepoint sites, but the premium program should include the features of the less feature rich program. Anyway, for anyone else that is fed up with this nonsense - download a trial copy of Expression Web - Create 19 websites using the 19 included templates. Then to use a template in Sharepoint Designer, open one of the templated websites and publish it to your local web site. You get the same exact thing as if you would have created the site in Sharepoint Designer using the missing templates (which really aren't missing). Russ |
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| Subject: Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer |
| Group: microsoft.public.msdn.general |
| Date: 4/10/2008 12:22:58 PM |
| From: Gerry Hickman [Email Address Protection] |
Hi, You can create non SP websites with SPD, so you appear to be saying the only issue is not being able to use the Microsoft designed templates, is that right? My guess is that most people designing their own websites from scratch would not want to use Microsoft's templates, but it's also possible the templates were originally designed with the assumption that SP features would be available, and therefore may not be suitable for web servers that don't run the extensions? Do they expect you to buy both? My guess is "yes". As usual we have massive (and pointless) duplication. Russell Stevens wrote: > At the time I downloaded Sharepoint Designer my subscription only had > Sharepoint Designer (Expression Web was not available). I have recently > started using it (I only do a few webs a year). Microsoft has stated > that Sharepoint Designer is a superset of Expression Web - you can do > everything you can do in Expression Web plus some sharepoint stuff. > > Well you can do everything EXCEPT create a new NON Sharepoint website > using a template. Who is Microsoft trying to fool. These two programs > are 99% identical. They have the same code base, same layout, same help > file, and same setup program (with very minor differences). The setup > program is so identical that it actually DOES install all the templates > but Sharepoint Designer is crippled so that it can't use them. They even > left the option to create a new website using a template in the program. > They just suppressed the templates so that you can't select any. > > Does Microsoft expect their customers to have to buy/use both programs > - you could run one of these programs all day long and unless you look > in the title bar, you wouldn't know which program you were using. You > need Sharepoint designer if you are doing sharepoint sites, master > pages, etc. but why cripple it so you can't do a plain simple website. > Just buy another copy of the same identical program which has the > sharepoint stuff turned off and the templates turned on. I can > understand having a premium program for Sharepoint and a separate less > feature rich program for non Sharepoint sites, but the premium program > should include the features of the less feature rich program. > > Anyway, for anyone else that is fed up with this nonsense - download a > trial copy of Expression Web - Create 19 websites using the 19 included > templates. Then to use a template in Sharepoint Designer, open one of > the templated websites and publish it to your local web site. You get > the same exact thing as if you would have created the site in Sharepoint > Designer using the missing templates (which really aren't missing). > > Russ -- Gerry Hickman (London UK) |
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| Subject: Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer |
| Group: microsoft.public.msdn.general |
| Date: 4/10/2008 5:13:41 PM |
| From: "Russell Stevens" [Email Address Protection] |
Gerry, The normal templates they supply but disable require no SP features on the server. After all, they are used in Expression Web which is a "standards based web development program". You click File, New, WebSite, then select Templates and are presented with an empty screen with no templates listed. The exact same operation in Expression Web gives you a choice of 19 templates with the exact same menus, screen shots, help content, etc. Not only do they not allow you to use the templates that their setup program has installed, from what I can tell, they don't allow you to use any templates (other than another selection that allows you to use the SharePoint Templates that are downloaded from a SharePoint server). Nothing in the documentation explains how to add a normal template. I can't believe a program like that can even get out the door - dead ended menu items, no documentation, etc. Designed by committee would seem to apply (where no one told the committee what the target audience was). And lots of people that don't do this stuff as our #1 job find the templates very useful. They setup a basic web structure with navigation, editable regions, content place holders, etc. They are easy to modify and save a lot of time - which is why someone would buy the program in the first place. But maybe they are on to something - why don't I take all of my programs, give each one two new names, take one feature out of each one, then sell them and make twice as much money because now my customers have to buy two programs instead of one. That appears to be what was done with Front Page being replaced by SharePoint Designer and Expression Web. Russ "Gerry Hickman" <gerry666uk@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message news:OmxCMB0mIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > Hi, > > You can create non SP websites with SPD, so you appear to be saying the > only issue is not being able to use the Microsoft designed templates, is > that right? My guess is that most people designing their own websites from > scratch would not want to use Microsoft's templates, but it's also > possible the templates were originally designed with the assumption that > SP features would be available, and therefore may not be suitable for web > servers that don't run the extensions? > > Do they expect you to buy both? My guess is "yes". As usual we have > massive (and pointless) duplication. > |
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| Subject: Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer |
| Group: microsoft.public.msdn.general |
| Date: 4/11/2008 1:08:33 PM |
| From: Gerry Hickman [Email Address Protection] |
Russell Stevens wrote: > And lots of people that don't do this stuff as our #1 job find the > templates very useful. They setup a basic web structure with navigation, > editable regions, content place holders, etc. They are easy to modify > and save a lot of time - which is why someone would buy the program in > the first place. OK, but how can they work on a non-extended web server? For example, let's say you build a site with 1000 pages and the top left corner of each page has a content place holder. One day you change the content place holder in the client application and then want to publish the changes to the web server. Does that mean it will suddenly update 1000 pages, or does it use an IFRAME or something? On an extended server, you obviously have server-side includes or design time functionality so it just grabs the content from ONE location and it's magically changed the whole site. There was always a problem with Frontpage with the shared borders feature where the end user could accidentally change the whole site with a few clicks. -- Gerry Hickman (London UK) |
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| Subject: Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer |
| Group: microsoft.public.msdn.general |
| Date: 4/11/2008 8:30:05 PM |
| From: "Russell Stevens" [Email Address Protection] |
Gerry, If the content is on one page, you publish one page. If you have a site where the same content is repeated on all the pages, you just include that content in your .dwt page (template page) or on a master page. If you use a template page, then Expression Web or SharePoint Designer will modify the other 1000 pages before you upload and you upload all 1000 pages (say for the footer of all the web pages). Or if all the pages just point to the same content via a url then you can just change what is at that url and not upload any pages. If you use a SharePoint server and master pages then the server will dish out all the changes via the master page. I think shared borders and frames are pretty much history (they died with Front Page). A template page is different than a web site template. A template page shows up on all the pages that use it and can have editable and non editable regions - you can include your masthead, site navigation, footer, on a template page so you don't have to manually put them on each page. A web site template will typically generate an entire web site consisting of a template page and a default.htm, and other pages say for contacts, links, about, etc. depending on the design of the template. You can change the look of the whole site by modifying the style sheet and the template page. Each page will have some placeholders for your custom content. And if done correctly, all the fonts, colors, graphics, buttons, etc. were picked by someone who knew what they were doing. Nothing you can't do from scratch in several hours, but with a site template, you can have a whole site ready for you to modify in a couple of seconds. It just doesn't make sense why Microsoft would remove this capability. Russ > > OK, but how can they work on a non-extended web server? For example, let's > say you build a site with 1000 pages and the top left corner of each page > has a content place holder. One day you change the content place holder in > the client application and then want to publish the changes to the web > server. Does that mean it will suddenly update 1000 pages, or does it use > an IFRAME or something? On an extended server, you obviously have > server-side includes or design time functionality so it just grabs the > content from ONE location and it's magically changed the whole site. There > was always a problem with Frontpage with the shared borders feature where > the end user could accidentally change the whole site with a few clicks. > > -- > Gerry Hickman (London UK) |
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